We need to talk. I know you are aware that you have caused something approaching a controversy within much of the black metal scene. To put it bluntly, a lot of people don't like you. From what I've read in a recent interview, you seem to think that your very presence upsets people and you are right -- there is a group that hates anyone who looks different and wants to mess with their rigidly-defined, neat little world of rules and standards. But there is a bigger problem that has not been addressed and I think that it really warrants attention. Though not your intention, you appear arrogant, condescending, and bursting with pretension. I don't know if anyone has addressed these with you directly so at the risk of coming off as arrogant, condescending, and a bit pretentious myself, I want to put some things out in the open. I hope that you will give this some consideration.
To the point, then: we get it, dude. You think you are very, very important. Everything about you oozes a sense of superiority. Looking at only the first few pages of your Transcendental Black Metal essay, we find the following:
You somehow decided that black metal is the "culmination of the history of extreme metal."
You explain that traditional black metal is ultimately unfulfilling:
"Hyperborean [traditional, Scandinavian-derived] Black Metal represents the mountaineer's arrival at the peak and a supposed leap off of it... And he is left, crestfallen, frozen and alone, in the Hyperborean realm."
You authoritatively claim the blast beat as belonging to black metal, though far from unique to it, because it allows you to rationalize your I-can't-maintain-a-hyper-blast beat by plainly stating, "the technique of Hyperborean Black Metal is the blast beat."
You audaciously inform us that your work is the next stage of the art's evolution with "[Transcendental Black Metal] is a sublimination of Hyperborean Black Metal in both its spiritual aspect and its technical aspect."
Those passages, the essay on the whole, and every attempt to defend your position shows that you lack even the smallest sliver of modesty or respect for your peers or listeners. These qualities -- rather, the lack of these qualities -- are not unusual for black metal artists to possess; after all, concepts of superiority and elitism are hallmarks of traditional black metal. In your case, though, they do not apply because you have gone so far out of your way to show that you are not the typical black metal musician, you are not part of this world -- you are an outsider wearing some (just some) of black metal's skin. I appreciate you taking the effort to describe what you are attempting to do; however, when you make lengthy, authoritative statements decrying black metal as dead and outdated, when you deride everything that came before you as little more than a failed attempt at something that is unreachable, you're thumbing your nose at everyone who does not see things your way. It's obnoxious. It's rude. It's annoying.
More than that, it is unfounded. A serious question: Who the fuck are you to dictate anything about black metal in a way that affects anyone other than yourself? Your experience as a philosophy student at Columbia does not grant you the title of President of Black Metal. Acclaims from the Village Voice do not grant you instant respect, they earn you the disdain of everyone in the black metal scene. Reading through Lords of Chaos does not make you a black metal expert.
You come from a position of privilege. By being young, white, attending an Ivy League school, and aligning yourself with the Brooklyn art scene instead of the metal scene, you essentially flip a switch and get credibility with the "establishment" that people who are not like you will not ever have. Privilege in itself is not a crime and exploiting it is only natural. Your problem is that you seem to not recognize your privileged starting point and behave as if you earned the attention you get from those around you. Just as nobody would have given me and my music the time of day if I lived in the middle of Iowa, nobody would care about you at all if you had a different starting point.
This is not to say that you did not work for what you have --privilege alone won't take you all the way -- but your behavior is that of someone who believes the hype around them instead of seeing it for what it is. It is ugly, selfish, immature behavior unbefitting someone with your intellect. More than that, your smug marginalization of "hyperborean" black metal combined with this privilege is where the interest in you from the Village Voice, the New York Times, and so many other mainstream publications comes from. The message sent is that black metal did not matter until "one of them" got involved. That is why people hate what has been termed hipster black metal: it waters down the very essence of the art, wipes away its history, and sends an "all-clear!" to the mainstream that it has the approval of people who aren't Neanderthalic metalheads. You have positioned yourself as their emissary. You should be very proud.
Similar to the way in which the dumbest people are usually the most vocal about the superiority of their race, experience has taught me that the more someone talks about how important they are, the less important they are in reality. Without a history of innovation, without a number of bands who directly cite your music as a defining influence, without the deep respect of your peers, your manifesto comes off as little more than masturbation. Reading through your Transcendental Black Metal essay, you can basically take every occurrence of the title and replace it with "Liturgy" without altering the piece's essence; in fact, I think that this helps the reader clearly understand just how important you see yourself and your work. It shows that the concept of Transcendental Black Metal is not about creating something new for everyone, it is a celebration of you, your band, and your ideas, but in an underhanded, indirect way. "Liturgy is the reanimation of the form of black metal with a new soul, a soul full of chaos, frenzy, and ecstasy." Wow, that's awesome! Thank you for providing what we always lacked!
You had one full-length under your belt before you decided you were a black metal expert, capable of explaining what it means, what it is, what it should be. One mostly-well-received full-length plus pedigree does not equal the right to announce yourself as genre-defining art. Ranting about how you are better than everyone else -- and like it or not, that is most definitely the common interpretation of your "manifesto" -- does not suddenly make it so.
I want to this clear: I think it's cool that you take what you do seriously. In a scene filled with small people talking about really big ideas, it's refreshing to see someone come at black metal with a unique perspective, even if it is divisive or weird. I think that calling bullshit on your peers when necessary is important and you are doing that; hell, I'm doing that right now. I've done quite a bit of that in the past few years. I agree that American (not US) black metal deserves a respectable, unique identity. I think that a lot of black metal's traditions have outlived their meanings and usefulness. A reboot, a reinterpretation is a good thing.
I do not think your rigid rules, definitions, and titles are the way to do it. If anything, the new generation of modern American black metal is characterized by intense individualism and personal reinterpretations of what it is to be a black metal band. It is respectful of traditions without using them as crutches or excuses. It is the spiritual successor to punk rock, borne of its aggression, DIY attitude, raw aesthetic, and a disregard for authority.
Personally, I find your "positive" black metal thing absurd and though I dig the intensity of your material, it really doesn't strike me as anything deep, special, or thought-provoking. I don't like the way you present yourself on stage. I'm gonna be really snobby here and say that I think playing out of combo amps is not acceptable. I refuse to acknowledge the burst beat as anything other than a very inconsistent hyper-blast. But hey, man, that's OK. Everyone should do what they want, create for themselves, make the art that feels right for them. You have every right to be proud of your accomplishments and your music. What is not cool is your superior attitude, your condescension, and your interest in defining your interpretation of black metal as America's Black Metal. I find it disrespectful. You're making yourself look bad and you're making American black metal look bad. Building a throne does not make you a king.
If you read this, you'll probably just dismiss it as coming from some bitter black metal guy who doesn't get what you're doing. That's what people who consider themselves intellectually and artistically superior to those around them do: they are so sure of their positions that anyone who disagrees with their methods must be wrong or ignorant. Please remember that my point here is not that I want you to compromise your artistic vision, it's that I want you to adjust your attitude and the energy you are putting out. Show some humility, chill out, and spend more time working on yourself because one day, that will be all you have and all that matters.
This is why I like bands like Blood Storm and Inquisition and Nightbringer and Black Witchery and Krieg. GTFO all nowadays USBM including all local NEBM bands
This is why I like bands like Blood Storm and Inquisition and Nightbringer and Black Witchery and Krieg. GTFO all nowadays USBM including all local NEBM bands
We need to talk. I know you are aware that you have caused something approaching a controversy within much of the black metal scene. To put it bluntly, a lot of people don't like you. From what I've read in a recent interview, you seem to think that your very presence upsets people and you are right -- there is a group that hates anyone who looks different and wants to mess with their rigidly-defined, neat little world of rules and standards. But there is a bigger problem that has not been addressed and I think that it really warrants attention. Though not your intention, you appear arrogant, condescending, and bursting with pretension. I don't know if anyone has addressed these with you directly so at the risk of coming off as arrogant, condescending, and a bit pretentious myself, I want to put some things out in the open. I hope that you will give this some consideration.
just touch dicks and get it over with. you know you both want to. did they omit the part at the end of this letter that said "do you like me? circle yes, no, or maybe"
overall, good read tho.
post by SLAAAAG at Jun 13,2011 2:42pm
Honestly, if Woe put as much effort into their song writing as they did this stupid essay, it would have benefit us (see: me) more.
post by orktourass at Jun 13,2011 2:45pm
one of HHH's comments on that metalsucks link.
[QUOTEI have friends with Neil Young AND Merzbow records. Is that incomprehensible to you? It’s not that black metal’s seen as a low art, it’s that most of it is shit. Those indie and mainstream publications are the shit filter. The press we get has everything to do with the actual music. It’s so typical of someone in the metal community to call others close-minded while obviously being close-minded themselves.
This guy is so dogmatic. He is the Pope and messiah of his own religion.
one of HHH's comments on that metalsucks link.
[QUOTEI have friends with Neil Young AND Merzbow records. Is that incomprehensible to you? It’s not that black metal’s seen as a low art, it’s that most of it is shit. Those indie and mainstream publications are the shit filter. The press we get has everything to do with the actual music. It’s so typical of someone in the metal community to call others close-minded while obviously being close-minded themselves.
This guy is so dogmatic. He is the Pope and messiah of his own religion.
I love how the ultimate win in these arguments is always, "yeah, but it's all about the music, maaaaaaaaaaan".
one of HHH's comments on that metalsucks link.
[QUOTEI have friends with Neil Young AND Merzbow records. Is that incomprehensible to you? It’s not that black metal’s seen as a low art, it’s that most of it is shit. Those indie and mainstream publications are the shit filter. The press we get has everything to do with the actual music. It’s so typical of someone in the metal community to call others close-minded while obviously being close-minded themselves.
This guy is so dogmatic. He is the Pope and messiah of his own religion.
they just need to touch dick tips and admit they are both faggots
post by woeispissed at Jun 13,2011 2:49pm
Just because I feel the need to write a ten page scholarly article about how the fallout of Liturgys douchebaggery is negatively effecting my record sales does not mean you need to gang up on me!
Just because I feel the need to write a ten page scholarly article about how the fallout of Liturgys douchebaggery is negatively effecting my record sales does not mean you need to gang up on me!
Obviously this is not me. The point of my article was to show real black metal fans (such as you folks here at rttp) that Im in touch with the true meaning of black metal. While I know some of you consider me a hipster I hope that through this article you come to respect both my music and me as a human being more. Unlike Hunter, I want to be liked by you all. The four non-blondes summed it all up in their greatest song I pray, oh my god do I pray, I pray every single day for retribution.
Just because I feel the need to write a ten page scholarly article about how the fallout of Liturgys douchebaggery is negatively effecting my record sales does not mean you need to gang up on me!
Obviously this is not me. The point of my article was to show real black metal fans (such as you folks here at rttp) that Im in touch with the true meaning of black metal. While I know some of you consider me a hipster I hope that through this article you come to respect both my music and me as a human being more. Unlike Hunter, I want to be liked by you all. The four non-blondes summed it all up in their greatest song I pray, oh my god do I pray, I pray every single day for retribution.
this made me realize that the singer for 4 Non Blondes looks eerily like Erik Rutan.
post by blah blah bibbidy boo at Jun 13,2011 3:38pm
It both is and is not about the music. Both perspectives are legit. Get over it.
i still can't believe the shit the Liturgy guy is saying in the metalsucks comments. what a lost cause he is. this guy's level of arrogance will get him killed someday.
"Hey, Bob, you know what? Fuck you. Decibel magazine gave Aesthetica a seven. You know what they gave Krallice’s Diotima? An eight. Decibel >>>> MetalSucks bloggers and commentators. My music is far from damn-near unlistenable. I’m in one of the best bands in the world. You’re just too stupid to comprehend that fact."
post by Spaldino on Phone at Jun 13,2011 3:43pm
I almost feel the need to post liturgy video again...
post by blah blah blibbidy boo at Jun 13,2011 3:43pm
Arrogance usually ends badly. It's only a matter of time before some one takes his head off with a hay maker. And all the circular logic in the world won't stop that.
post by BlessedOffalNLI at Jun 13,2011 4:15pm
the thing that is really fucking with metal is all the over analyzing and caring about what others do so much. Who gives a shit about this toolbox hunter? Does his presence make A Blaze in the Northern Sky any less great? Posers have always been and always will be around. Focus on the worthwhile and just ignore the worthless, its not that difficult.
the thing that is really fucking with metal is all the over analyzing and caring about what others do so much. Who gives a shit about this toolbox hunter? Does his presence make A Blaze in the Northern Sky any less great? Posers have always been and always will be around. Focus on the worthwhile and just ignore the worthless, its not that difficult.
this guy is really basing his whole life and reputation on this "thesis." i'd like to see where he is in 20 years if he's still breating the same air as us degenerates.
Focus on the worthwhile and just ignore the worthless, its not that difficult.
So what you're saying is that you've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmative and don't mess with Mister In-Between
Fuck that buttdart. His music and "thesis" are both underwhelming and merit 0 attention. He'll choke on his own arrogance. Someone desperately needs a pisscupping.
I'd love to agree with you, Frank, but the loss of Union Pool would be too much for me to bear. Best venue south of Ralph's. Their taco truck virtually balances out the hipster scourge. A buttdart pogrom would be more apropos.
^Liturgy band photo. Gotta love the krallice shirt.
^krallice band photo. Gotta love the drudkh shirt.
14+
^
number of unofficial myspace sites Drudkh had at one point in 2006 and 2007, before the label launched the official one in 2009 and rereleased all of their material to the masses.
Drudkh, a once great band who reestablished the "drone" sound with a modern sound and eastern european/slavic tinge, are responsible for this simple-minded 2 chord "black metal" with 4 reverb pedals and transcendental attitude.
It's all Drudkh's fault. Blame Drudkh, Metal-Archives, Myspace, and people who'd rather download music than hunt for original copies of Drudkh's albums. And the internet.
Trancendentalist Black Metal wouldn't exist if the internet hadn't exposed Drudkh to these chaps just a few years ago.
Best thing about it? Drudkh still quietly goes about their business making good music, albeit different than their past material. And they stay quiet.
BRING BACK HATE FOREST.
SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY AND LET ME LISTEN TO MUSIC. WHO THE FUCK CARES.
This.
You do know that by garnering even one response to such shenanigans automatically incorporates you into the discussion right?
You could easily just continue listening to music and not respond. Just sayin.'
post by arktripolius at Jun 13,2011 6:38pm
erryone has something to say and none of it matters one good goddammmm, but you boys should know that nothing gets between me and my lulz
post by arktripolius at Jun 13,2011 6:40pm
i only blame drudkh for releasing 8 or 9 solid masterpieces and nothing else. no slavic, no entry.
I agree, but I'd cut that number into a much smaller one :P
Even though I was joking, there are a number of issues on why this "transcendentalist" nonsensical shit started in the first place. Same thing with "hipst--" er, "soft and postmodern" "blac--", er, "metal" exists.
but, like the true fans say, there's no reason to dwell on it. I've stated my stance on how we should try to hold onto metal's values before they're pissed on, but it's too late. Alas, I must learn to accept what is, and listen to what was.
I agree, but I'd cut that number into a much smaller one :P
Even though I was joking, there are a number of issues on why this "transcendentalist" nonsensical shit started in the first place. Same thing with "hipst--" er, "soft and postmodern" "blac--", er, "metal" exists.
but, like the true fans say, there's no reason to dwell on it. I've stated my stance on how we should try to hold onto metal's values before they're pissed on, but it's too late. Alas, I must learn to accept what is, and listen to what was.
SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY AND LET ME LISTEN TO MUSIC. WHO THE FUCK CARES.
This.
You do know that by garnering even one response to such shenanigans automatically incorporates you into the discussion right?
You could easily just continue listening to music and not respond. Just sayin.'
I could. I just don't get why dudes need to mash dicks together to see who goes soft first. Or, I don't understand the need to care or protect something, that cannot be protected. As long as there is quality people, writing quality songs and performing quality shows, the shenanigans of some should not matter to the many. A court jester is best left ignored.
I'm eating cheese puffs right now and watching Gnomeo and Juliet. The music is all Elton John, but there's NO TINY DANCER!! What the fuck is up with that? The movie is gnomes, SHORT things, dare I say, TINY. and there's a scene when they... wait for it.....DANCE.
I thought chris made good points. It was well written, I guess I'm glad somebody had the time to put something like that together. I really don't care about liturgy and this manifesto nonsense. Focus on the tunes ya fuckin' pettifogger.
I'm eating cheese puffs right now and watching Gnomeo and Juliet. The music is all Elton John, but there's NO TINY DANCER!! What the fuck is up with that? The movie is gnomes, SHORT things, dare I say, TINY. and there's a scene when they... wait for it.....DANCE.
Best post in this entire faggot thread. Can we talk about Prince now? Y'know... something relevant?
post by fuck this hipster bullshit at Jun 13,2011 10:48pm
I'm eating cheese puffs right now and watching Gnomeo and Juliet. The music is all Elton John, but there's NO TINY DANCER!! What the fuck is up with that? The movie is gnomes, SHORT things, dare I say, TINY. and there's a scene when they... wait for it.....DANCE.
Best post in this entire faggot thread. Can we talk about Prince now? Y'know... something relevant?
but I think there needs to be a dialouge about black metal
I'd love to agree with you, Frank, but the loss of Union Pool would be too much for me to bear. Best venue south of Ralph's. Their taco truck virtually balances out the hipster scourge. A buttdart pogrom would be more apropos.
Ahhh, forgive my ignorance then. I have absolutely no attachment to the area, but perhaps if I was able to experience Union Pool I would change my mind.
SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY AND LET ME LISTEN TO MUSIC. WHO THE FUCK CARES.
This.
You do know that by garnering even one response to such shenanigans automatically incorporates you into the discussion right?
You could easily just continue listening to music and not respond. Just sayin.'
I could. I just don't get why dudes need to mash dicks together to see who goes soft first. Or, I don't understand the need to care or protect something, that cannot be protected. As long as there is quality people, writing quality songs and performing quality shows, the shenanigans of some should not matter to the many. A court jester is best left ignored.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”
post by woeischris at Jun 14,2011 8:34am
[QUOTE=\"Yeti:1213612\"]
\"Criticism may not be agreeable, but this is RTTP and RTTP fulfills the same function as pain in the human body.”
I'm eating cheese puffs right now and watching Gnomeo and Juliet. The music is all Elton John, but there's NO TINY DANCER!! What the fuck is up with that? The movie is gnomes, SHORT things, dare I say, TINY. and there's a scene when they... wait for it.....DANCE.
Best post in this entire faggot thread. Can we talk about Prince now? Y'know... something relevant?
Anyone remember when Terror called out Eighteen Visions and made those t-shirts with the scissors on it to supposedly make fun of them. And then 6 months later they were touring together?
When the tips of these two penises touch, they will melt into each other and become a phallic Chinese finger trap that will then open a wormhole sucking them into the outermost reaches of the most transcendental galaxy.
I refuse to acknowledge the burst beat as anything other than a very inconsistent hyper-blast.
It's the dark side of self-taught musicianship. Otherwise, I say so long as you can play, who cares how you get there. But the terms, oh man, the terms.
I refuse to acknowledge the burst beat as anything other than a very inconsistent hyper-blast.
Just skimmed and saw this. LOL at both terms.
I agree. Silliness.
It's the dark side of self-taught musicianship. Otherwise, I say so long as you can play, who cares how you get there. But the terms, oh man, the terms.
fix'd
post by ouchdrummer at Jun 14,2011 10:06am edited Jun 14,2011 10:06am
you should hear some of things I hear while teaching, or from some of the drummers at shows i play. WOOOOO
Exactly. Wordy over-thinking homo calling out a wordy over-thinking homo for being pompous. How pompous.
Here's my own open letter:
Dear Liturgy guy,
Get over yourself. Your book has no good pictures. Also transcendental blackmetal= still playing to a room full of dudes, except the dudes at the TBM show have likely not showered for a week or so. Gay. Waste of a college education.
Exactly. Wordy over-thinking homo calling out a wordy over-thinking homo for being pompous. How pompous.
Here's my own open letter:
Dear Liturgy guy,
Get over yourself. Your book has no good pictures. Also transcendental blackmetal= still playing to a room full of dudes, except the dudes at the TBM show have likely not showered for a week or so. Gay. Waste of a college education.
-Pete
I don't even know what the fuck transcendental blackmetal is and I couldn't possibly give less of a fuck because I would rather listen to my son tell me about his "huge poops THIS BIG" than listen to some goth yell at some artfag about stupidly named genres of metal.
If Seth Putnam taught the world anything it's that writing letters is for faggots. If you have a problem with a band stand outside their tour bus and challenge those pussy's to a fight. Keep Metal Barbaric you art school queers.
One thing I've noticed about most people's defense of Liturgy is they mostly say "Black Metal isn't all about Norway and Satan" in far too many words.
Congratufuckinglations, you figured out what people who actually gave a shit about black metal realized over 10 years ago. Go watch until the light takes us again.
If Seth Putnam taught the world anything it's that writing letters is for faggots. If you have a problem with a band stand outside their tour bus and challenge those pussy's to a fight. Keep Metal Barbaric you art school queers.
post by which hobbit are you? at Jun 14,2011 12:30pm
when people are being turds, they need to be exposed for the turds they are. you should ignore the court jester only after you point out the flaws in his act. in this case, i'm glad someone else did that, even though it was already posted on this board many, many times.
that singer guy looks like he has a touch of the downs.
His encephalitic forehead and dead gaze suggests fetal alcohol syndrome.
post by Alx_Casket at Jun 14,2011 3:18pm edited Jun 14,2011 9:34pm
post by DestroyYouAlot at Jun 14,2011 4:08pm edited Jun 14,2011 4:18pm
First off, it needs to be pointed out that black metal is a culture. To pretend otherwise implies that one either isn't versed in the material enough to know any better, or simply doesn't wish it to be the case. (And, let it be said, an awful lot of people deeply wish that this music _was_ free of any actual semantic content, so that they could have the luxury of listening to it without appearing to support something that actually _means_ anything.) A culture, albeit a fracticious one, comprised of hateful, intolerant, isolationists, but a culture nonetheless, and it's been that way since the "second wave" in Norway (and arguably before). And, while I'm totally ok with hidden knowledge (and black metal certainly shouldn't attempt to be "transparent" and lay open all its secrets to anyone who asks), this kind of dialogue does define the perception of a culture (even within itself). By no means would I ever let the surface perception of this define what I do, but I know from walking around with the weirdo neurology I've got that you do live in a world of other people's perceptions, whether they line up with yours or not. So I don't see why I'm supposed to just throw up my hands and say, "Fuck it - let the morons have it" because it's the polite thing to do.
Let bullshit be illuminated as what it is. I feel like the people who are the most invested having a critique-free environment are the ones who fear they'd have something to be critical of. I'd prefer to answer to any public attack than to rely on the whisper-behind-the-back method (the biggest advantage of which is that the party in question can't answer an accusation they're not aware of).
post by DestroyYouAlot at Jun 14,2011 4:12pm edited Jun 14,2011 4:12pm
And, again - most of the people in here who're upset that we're even talking about this are openly disdainful of, and certainly want no part in, black metal culture - which raises the question of why the fuck we'd care what they had to say on the matter in the first place.
post by bobnomaamrooney at Jun 14,2011 6:17pm edited Jun 14,2011 6:29pm
Easily the worst thing about this band and contemporaries such as Krallice is that the genre they're aping is so reliant on atmosphere and context that it's really apparent when inauthentic bands play what they think of as black metal. In that respect these interlopers have no more artistic merit than, say, Eyes of Noctum.
Or as I posted on Krallice after last year's show at Great Scott, band of their ilk's aimless noodling rings as hollow as any USBM band fabricating a pagan heritage to sing about (does Krallice get double points for throwing a Mjölnir into their logo?). In Krallice's case the music isn't connected to anything, it simply exists as shred records; for Liturgy the context is the mile wide and inch deep concept of North American rebirth or something having to do with Aaron Copeland compositions. That's arguably more pathetic an excuse for co-opting black metal than Krallice's shredding because it presents a whitewashed and childish view of North American history as its atmospheric thrust.
It's not even a question of pastoral vs. urban black metal, there are a number of bands who capably write black metal that reflect their urban experiences. These "hipster" black metal bands seem unwilling to do so, whether it's a lack of knowledge beyond second-wave Norwegian bands or willful adherence to a narrow spectrum of influences I'm not sure. And it's a shame because you can make incredible black metal records with an urban context. I don't think any band does this better than Antaeus, Listening De Principii Evangelikum you can hear the crushing density and alienation of Paris' banlieues in everything from the wall of sound drumming and guitars to the terse almost exclusively monosyllabic lyrics MkM grunts in short bursts.
subculture within a former subculture, but now officially a culture due to trendy overnighters and popularity, forcing it to lose its subculture status*
Too much high-minded metaphysical faggotry and meaningless option-volleying in this thread and no bestial devotion, goat worship, sigil doting or possession to be found. Fuck us one and all. Not a worthy soul to be found here, my worthless self included. Shut off your computers and remove your names from the book of life.
post by Totally the real Abbath at Jun 15,2011 5:43am
EH EH EH!!!!!!! none of these faggots are northern or grim enough to be true black metal!
post by Varg at Jun 15,2011 7:43am
This is ...huh... War
post by Varg`s brother Sven at Jun 15,2011 8:30am
Shut up Varg
post by Euronymous from the grave at Jun 15,2011 8:40am
You morons are all wrong. Black metal is about silly music, banging women, and hanging out at Anthrax concerts. That faggy douche varg killed me because he is a sad loner no one liked while others enjoyed my band very much and he was jealous. Remember? Shut up about black metal you sillynanny know nothing american pricks.
post by poopshit at Jun 15,2011 8:41am
singer for Liturgay looks like a nice fresh-faced little girl. it would be hilarious for him to get thrown in prison with a huge 300-pound black dude cellmate.
post by sextuple nigger at Jun 15,2011 9:12am
White boys be wilin the fuck out in this thread, imma text my boy greggry bout this ish
the thing that is really fucking with metal is all the over analyzing and caring about what others do so much. Who gives a shit about this toolbox hunter? Does his presence make A Blaze in the Northern Sky any less great? Posers have always been and always will be around. Focus on the worthwhile and just ignore the worthless, its not that difficult.
WELL PUT.
I agree that black metal in general should progress and grow rather than reiterating an exhausted theme or idea, but the way Hunter presents it is beyond ridiculous. Their music is decent. Krallice is pretty good. But it's not that the music itself is soooo unique. Who's to say what Deathspell Omega was doing wasn't pushing black metal in an entirely new direction? In fact, I would cite them as a band that "TRANSCENDED" the genre, and maintained the genre's original ethos while doing something new with the actual music, its aesthetic and its sound.
Black metal musicians (in NEBM as well): You take yourself way too seriously. You of all people should be excited to see something different in black metal. Aren't we supposed to go against the fucking grain.
Yeah man, rock your gauntlet. Grow a big beard. Act hard. Wicked black metal.
I think if your music sounds exactly like every other black metal band you fail as a musician. But if you over-analyze everything, you fail as a person.
Stop using the word hipster in general. I will never "play black metal" ever again. Mostly because of you ignorant, over-analytical douche bags.
Woe, you guys are on point. Congrats for maintaining respect, but providing constructive criticism.
post by THE TRUTH at Jun 20,2011 10:51am
p.s. my band Frontier is the only band around here worth paying attention to.
post by THE TRUTH at Jun 20,2011 10:54am
I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me.
i could care less about woe or liturgy, but i think most people who front some kinda oh-so-innovative "artist with a vision" bullshit are almost always more ego than substance and a total waste of time. fuck bloated arty prog rock, "black" or otherwise.
i personally like my black metal like i like the death metal, punk, hardcore, and whatever other music i listen to: ugly, dark and abrasive.
i could care less about woe or liturgy, but i think most people who front some kinda oh-so-innovative "artist with a vision" bullshit are almost always more ego than substance and a total waste of time. fuck bloated arty prog rock, "black" or otherwise.
i personally like my black metal like i like the death metal, punk, hardcore, and whatever other music i listen to: ugly, dark and abrasive.
I googled my name and this came up. You guys just prove my point. And, while Chris made many good arguments, he just does not fully comprehend TBM. Honestly, I did not expect anything better from him. What a shame, we could have been so close.
post by frankovhell at Jun 21,2011 12:28am
Lol wut?
So what is your point exactly? That you transcend us neanderthals? That your music will matter in 10 years? 5 years? 3 years?
It wont. No one will give a shit. Its even pretty clear that your own brooklyn ass plungering bandmates don't either.
And now I want to know... who booked that fucking Liturgy show in Brighton and why didn't they promote it?
I was under the impression that show had a big turnout. The kid who pours coffee at my brunch spot went. I assume it wasn't promoted in the metal scene but was promoted to the type of people who like Liturgy.
the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy.
post by nekronaut at Jun 21,2011 2:59am edited Jun 21,2011 2:59am
the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy the type of people who like Liturgy.
It's not even a question of pastoral vs. urban black metal, there are a number of bands who capably write black metal that reflect their urban experiences. These "hipster" black metal bands seem unwilling to do so, whether it's a lack of knowledge beyond second-wave Norwegian bands or willful adherence to a narrow spectrum of influences I'm not sure. And it's a shame because you can make incredible black metal records with an urban context.
I googled my name and this came up. You guys just prove my point. And, while Chris made many good arguments, he just does not fully comprehend TBM. Honestly, I did not expect anything better from him. What a shame, we could have been so close.
Probably a troll, but:
Unless one's audience is a board of nuclear physicists, an intelligent essay is written for the average half-brain. This means using simple words that the average person understands. By admitting that Grigg doesn't comprehend "TBM", you're admitting that your essay is poorly written.
Only pseudo-intellectual idiots use big words to show off. Especially today, when you can press F12 on your keyboard and pull of a list of synonyms of which you can pick the one with the most letters. Usually when I hear a black metaller use big words to convince people they're intellectuals, it comes after the phrases "racially aware" or "blood and soil".
Only pseudo-intellectual idiots use big words to show off.
I agree to an extent. I have a decent vocab and use 25 cent words here and there but I use them when that's the word I feel fits the context. Using words appropriately and using words just to impress people with how super-smart you are are two different things.
In this HHH interview... when he says that nonsense about the void being a substratum of chaos or whatever the fuck he said... that's the kind of person I believe you're describing. I wouldn't think he was a such a douche if he just kept shit like that to lyrics but when you're speaking like that in an interview, you come off as pretentious and seeming like you just downloaded the dictionary.com word of the day for the past month and tried to fit all you could into a single sentence.
post by Cunter Cunt-Cuntrix at Jun 21,2011 1:08pm
the void is a substratum of my butthole. enter the void.
Only pseudo-intellectual idiots use big words to show off.
I agree to an extent. I have a decent vocab and use 25 cent words here and there but I use them when that's the word I feel fits the context. Using words appropriately and using words just to impress people with how super-smart you are are two different things.
...or when writing a screenplay for a Star Trek episode.
post by FuckIsMySignature at Jun 21,2011 2:44pm edited Jun 21,2011 2:46pm
i finally took a minute to actually check out this band. this is complete fucking garbage. also i checked out his interview. how can you even think you sound like you know what your talking about when every other word is "like"? that irritates me so much. i've heard more intelligent sounding children recite the alphabet.
"like, like, we are like black metal but like are better in so far as we like suck dicks while we transcend romanticism.."
post by Hunter Hendrix at Jun 21,2011 2:47pm
Lyrical content is inseperable from how I represent my music outside of songwriting and performance. I am the music I create.
Lyrical content is inseperable from how I represent my music outside of songwriting and performance. I am the music I create.
Get over yourself Hunter. Comments like these only fuel hatred and contempt for current black metal. I am sorry this has put such a strain on our friendship, but until you chill out I will keep reminding you of what an idiot you are being.
It's too bad there's no New England tour date because I would love to stab his motherfucking-cocksucking-smirk-laden face with a rapier, then slice his head off with a machete and use it as a stage prop.
post by shit that is brutal at Jun 22,2011 10:14am
I can't really understand why so many people argue over whether this band is black metal or not. They're clearly unblack/white metal in their philosophy. Oh wait I know why most people haven't figured out the white metal sham that is Transcendental Plan, they're buttdart posers who got into black metal thanks to Southern Lord.
post by FuckIsMySignature at Jun 22,2011 10:34am edited Jun 22,2011 10:35am
i made it halfway through his response before i started to gag on my own vomit. someone beat up this turd already.
There has been a firestorm of criticism in the metal blogosphere about Liturgy and about me personally (ad hominem) and my ideas. I don't know how to respond directly to it because I don't recognize the object of attack -- it is a phantasm, a caricature, something different from the reality of our band and the reality of my personality, beliefs, aims, vision and so on. All I know is that I am not the arch-enemy of the black metal community, and that the internet is a crazy thing. And yet I'm not totally surprised by the reaction. And, though sometimes it makes me feel bad, at other times it fascinates me ... a chord has been struck somewhere.
So here I offer a few loosely related thoughts on black metal and counterculture: black metal is really profound as a culture and as a musical style -- more so than many people realize. I am very interested in an ethics concerned with ecstasy, the transcendental, and affirmation. Liturgy comes from the intersection of these two ideas. For me, black metal's virtue is that it can, using a combination of history, sound, and audacity, activate a connection to a sort of transcendental field, the perennial occult, the Absolute ... that it touches the spiritual and poetic channels of impossibility that are closed up most of the time. Or, at least, this is a potential within black metal. It can be isolated from other aspects of black metal and enhanced by means of cross-fertilization with other resonant forms of music. The task of Transcendental Black Metal is this isolation and enhancement.
Black metal is both an index of the death of the counterculture tradition and a way to to resurrect it. What right do I have to say that? I have none -- but this business of doing things one has no right to do is crucial to my outlook. I think counterculture lost its way when it turned its back on the revolutionary-spiritual-psychosexual-utopian ambition that gave birth to it and settled for a general attitude of "No." Impotent gestures of resistance to a system which will obviously always easily digest and extract exchange value from those gestures, the formation of little subcultures where people escape reality by congratulating each other for resembling one another - that is a dead, or at least very sick counterculture, one that the system has contained. Today the gestures themselves have almost died out. Mostly I just see cynical tribalism and people wanting to seem cool. That goes for almost every subculture, metal or otherwise. The term "Hyperborean Black Metal" refers explicitly to the explicit nihilism in black metal - but its real referent is the implicit nihilism in all rock; it refers to subculture identification as such, which in my view is ultimately a social neurosis, a blockage, something bad.
An American black metal that uses some BM techniques but combines them with the usual Anglo-American punk attitude is maybe inevitably coming into existence, but that's not what Liturgy is, it's not what I'm interested in. I think music should be global, Universal, not anti-anything or -anyone. It should be anti-anti, if anything. And it should be directed towards the universal goodness at the core of every human being, and it should address each person alone, as an individual. Our music is neither aimed at any particular niche audience, like the "metal community", nor the widest possible audience - it is simply the product of an intense urge, and it is directed in principle to anyone, generically.
Part of what drew me to black metal is the courage of members of the second wave. Something in their attitude allowed them to burst through the counterculture's carcass. That attitude is: grandiosity. I grew up more or less in the orbit of punk, but never really fit into it. It's because I've always had an almost unbearably intense sort of Wagnerian ambition ... the urge to create a system glowing with ethical power ... there's just no place for that in punk. But in black metal there is in fact a place for this ambition. I have a sense of pregnancy, in the sense that Henry Miller or Nietzsche talk about pregnancy. I feel pulled by an urge to create, to give birth to the greatest work of art I can possibly produce, with black metal as a starting point and always as a frame of reference. To generate a cultural product that doesn't just express the despicable state of affairs in the world, but something that, on the contrary, is a spark. Something that triggers a higher state, opens up a possibility. And this amounts to a kind of primordial, cosmic, excruciating "Yes." Aesthethica isn't necessarily product, but it is a step on the way. Maybe the whole thing will ultimately fail and the haters will rejoice. Whatever.
A lot of people don't take metal seriously as art, and a lot of people don't take art seriously as ethics. That's fine, I guess -- but as for myself, I do both. These days, when people detect ambition in someone they leap on that person like hyenas. The label "pretentious" is unquestioned as categorically damning. But I think musical culture could use a whole lot more pretension, if anything. It suffers from false, dishonest humility, and from a lack of ambition to be more than either entertainment or a badge of identification with a group. I think the haters have blinders on, and that they are misdirecting their aggressive energy. Somehow, they are hiding.
I'm interested in the act of declaring something and daring others to disagree; there's something magical about it. So maybe the caricature I mentioned above is exactly what I want. It's like planting a little sprout that gets watered from the frothing mouths of those who are enraged by its existence. It is a part of the child-rearing. My word for this is: "The Arkwork." Liturgy is an Arkwork. It's not just the songs, albums, shows -- it's also the reactions, the suffering, the stigma, the misrecognitions, the resoluteness, the unexpected detours. To be "pretentious," grandiose, to remain faithful to an impossible goal, to stay in contact with one's own desire and follow through with its consequences, unsure of what they will be ... to be real. That's what it is to live, I think, and to spread life. I hardly know why I'm writing this and have doubts that it's a "good idea," but the act is consistent I think with the ethic I'm trying to describe.
- Hunter Hunt-Hendrix
In a 1957 lecture, Experimental Music, he (John Cage) described music as "a purposeless play" which is "an affirmation of life – not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply a way of waking up to the very life we're living".
LOL. I guess he even responded to it. On the next episode of Hipster Hospital
--
Liturgy - "High Gold"
LITURGY's REBUTTAL (via Stereogum).
There has been a firestorm of criticism in the metal blogosphere about Liturgy and about me personally (ad hominem) and my ideas. I don't know how to respond directly to it because I don't recognize the object of attack -- it is a phantasm, a caricature, something different from the reality of our band and the reality of my personality, beliefs, aims, vision and so on. All I know is that I am not the arch-enemy of the black metal community, and that the internet is a crazy thing. And yet I'm not totally surprised by the reaction. And, though sometimes it makes me feel bad, at other times it fascinates me ... a chord has been struck somewhere.
So here I offer a few loosely related thoughts on black metal and counterculture: black metal is really profound as a culture and as a musical style -- more so than many people realize. I am very interested in an ethics concerned with ecstasy, the transcendental, and affirmation. Liturgy comes from the intersection of these two ideas. For me, black metal's virtue is that it can, using a combination of history, sound, and audacity, activate a connection to a sort of transcendental field, the perennial occult, the Absolute ... that it touches the spiritual and poetic channels of impossibility that are closed up most of the time. Or, at least, this is a potential within black metal. It can be isolated from other aspects of black metal and enhanced by means of cross-fertilization with other resonant forms of music. The task of Transcendental Black Metal is this isolation and enhancement.
Black metal is both an index of the death of the counterculture tradition and a way to to resurrect it. What right do I have to say that? I have none -- but this business of doing things one has no right to do is crucial to my outlook. I think counterculture lost its way when it turned its back on the revolutionary-spiritual-psychosexual-utopian ambition that gave birth to it and settled for a general attitude of "No." Impotent gestures of resistance to a system which will obviously always easily digest and extract exchange value from those gestures, the formation of little subcultures where people escape reality by congratulating each other for resembling one another - that is a dead, or at least very sick counterculture, one that the system has contained. Today the gestures themselves have almost died out. Mostly I just see cynical tribalism and people wanting to seem cool. That goes for almost every subculture, metal or otherwise. The term "Hyperborean Black Metal" refers explicitly to the explicit nihilism in black metal - but its real referent is the implicit nihilism in all rock; it refers to subculture identification as such, which in my view is ultimately a social neurosis, a blockage, something bad.
An American black metal that uses some BM techniques but combines them with the usual Anglo-American punk attitude is maybe inevitably coming into existence, but that's not what Liturgy is, it's not what I'm interested in. I think music should be global, Universal, not anti-anything or -anyone. It should be anti-anti, if anything. And it should be directed towards the universal goodness at the core of every human being, and it should address each person alone, as an individual. Our music is neither aimed at any particular niche audience, like the "metal community", nor the widest possible audience - it is simply the product of an intense urge, and it is directed in principle to anyone, generically.
Part of what drew me to black metal is the courage of members of the second wave. Something in their attitude allowed them to burst through the counterculture's carcass. That attitude is: grandiosity. I grew up more or less in the orbit of punk, but never really fit into it. It's because I've always had an almost unbearably intense sort of Wagnerian ambition ... the urge to create a system glowing with ethical power ... there's just no place for that in punk. But in black metal there is in fact a place for this ambition. I have a sense of pregnancy, in the sense that Henry Miller or Nietzsche talk about pregnancy. I feel pulled by an urge to create, to give birth to the greatest work of art I can possibly produce, with black metal as a starting point and always as a frame of reference. To generate a cultural product that doesn't just express the despicable state of affairs in the world, but something that, on the contrary, is a spark. Something that triggers a higher state, opens up a possibility. And this amounts to a kind of primordial, cosmic, excruciating "Yes." Aesthethica isn't necessarily product, but it is a step on the way. Maybe the whole thing will ultimately fail and the haters will rejoice. Whatever.
A lot of people don't take metal seriously as art, and a lot of people don't take art seriously as ethics. That's fine, I guess -- but as for myself, I do both. These days, when people detect ambition in someone they leap on that person like hyenas. The label "pretentious" is unquestioned as categorically damning. But I think musical culture could use a whole lot more pretension, if anything. It suffers from false, dishonest humility, and from a lack of ambition to be more than either entertainment or a badge of identification with a group. I think the haters have blinders on, and that they are misdirecting their aggressive energy. Somehow, they are hiding.
I'm interested in the act of declaring something and daring others to disagree; there's something magical about it. So maybe the caricature I mentioned above is exactly what I want. It's like planting a little sprout that gets watered from the frothing mouths of those who are enraged by its existence. It is a part of the child-rearing. My word for this is: "The Arkwork." Liturgy is an Arkwork. It's not just the songs, albums, shows -- it's also the reactions, the suffering, the stigma, the misrecognitions, the resoluteness, the unexpected detours. To be "pretentious," grandiose, to remain faithful to an impossible goal, to stay in contact with one's own desire and follow through with its consequences, unsure of what they will be ... to be real. That's what it is to live, I think, and to spread life. I hardly know why I'm writing this and have doubts that it's a "good idea," but the act is consistent I think with the ethic I'm trying to describe.
Yeah, they sound like Lightning Bolt riffs pasted over sloppy blasts. Totally corny and barely metal at all, and I say that as someone who intentionally listens to Velvet Cacoon once in awhile.
But from a comedy standpoint, I love that he makes a big deal of being "beyond" the mere blastbeats his drummer very obviously can't play. Little details like that and Woe Dude's anti-combo amp fixation are what really make this band beef.
This I can stand behind. 
