I thought this would make an interesting debate, even though there may not be many vegans to defend their side currently registered to this board...

veg·an ( P )
A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.

So my question is, why is it okay to eat plants? or a plants product which usually contains a seed? There is a minimum requirement of life, and a plant meets that requirement. A plant is life, some trees and plants even grow towards the sun, a venus fly trap eats flys... They might not have a mind to think, but they are still alive and we rape them of their offspring just like we do to animals.

Just like vegans say "what gives you the right to say that its okay to take an animals life?" well what makes it okay to take a plants life? Animals on farms today are grown and genetically engineered just as plants for the sole purpose of food for the world. If no one ate meat, would there be enough plants for the whole world? I really doubt it. Besides we genetically engineer tree's, they take the seed from the biggest and best tree and plant it over and over again. How is that natural / organic?

Cave men use to rely on meat to survive, because, how would they have known what a soy bean was and how to create stuff with it? So why is it any different now? Sure we have quite a few animal free products because we know how to create them, but could these products feed the entire world?


I'm not vegan, my girlfriend is, and I find myself thinking about it a lot.

Wow, you've really got me thinking now...

http://www.fatfreddysgigglers.com/special/MadCow[1].swf

You raise some interesting points! I'm not vegan but the singer in my band is, he'll be the first to admit that the points you've raised (which others have raised to him) are good points as well. I personally think a lot of vegan foods (Cheese, Ice Cream, Vegan Ribs and Burgers etc.) are all too synthetic for my taste. It's like some of the weed we get from Canada, too many chemicals make the high very good at first but then 15 mintues later you feel like shit with a headache. There's nothing better than good old organically grown indoor! Anyway, I digress, I think one factor could be that even though you take the vegetables off from the plant itself, the plant can still produce so in some cases you're not actually killing the plant. Another thing is the whole "take the seeds from the strongest trees and grow only the strong trees". That's pretty much how humans survived, survival of the fittest. I agree with many of your points and personally would never turn vegan, it's just not my deal. I really could go for a big steak!
peace

ok, here is my view on the subject

I used to live on a farm.
I've had to kill and bare witness to the killing of animals.
I didn't like it and I couldn't do it agian myself.
so I figure, if I can't do the dirty work, I don't have the right to reap the revwards. Seems pretty pussy of some fat chick going to McD's, eating a beef burger but she she could never slit the cows throat herself.

I eat veggies cause I could and have killed plants.
I eat/drink milk because I can and have milked cows.
I eat eggs cause I've have and could have chickens.

I don't know, RA, you aren't Ted Nugent...
Give up meat for pussy, succubus gave up meat for meat.

oh, and youre not bringing up anything interesting. Those thoughts have been spoken a million times...
let me quote a tool song.

as reverend
> maynard say's:
> "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured
> screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the
> cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You
> see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and
> to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my
> slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one
> million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now,
> I have seen the light! They have a consciousness,
> they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let
> the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I
> get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you
> Jesus.
>
> Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds
> on........

Reverend, we live in America...
We are supposed to benefit from other people's hard work.

Siberia said:

Though the plant itself does not die, your still raping the plant of its offspring. Just as we pump cows full of chemicals to get them to produce more milk so we can take the milk from them. The orange, or apple or whatever is meant to fall to the ground and plant other trees. The milk of a cow is meant to feed its offspring.

I don't think I will ever turn vegan, vegetarian maybe but I love chicken so I wouldn't be a strict vegetarian by any means. I think it is a good thing for some people who want to deprive themselves of animal products due to respect for 'animal life' but I don't think they can say they duely respect all life if they are still eating living things.

...

Beakey said:

oh, I forgot... time to get my ass on welfare.
bon-bon anyone?

RustedAngel said:

to quote simpsons, I'm a 5th degree vegan; I dont eat anything that casts a shadow.

I ate deer when I was on vacation. It wasn't very good. Also, they wouldn't let me kill one of their cows, and they eat meat but they hardly ever eat beef.

the_reverend said:

thats pretty extreme, even more so than a fruitarian! hahaha

Really i think that rusted angel makes a lot of sense, but you have to understand that (to our knowledge at least) plants dont feel physically, mentally, or emotionally. I am not a vegan, but my brother was a vegan for 2 years before he quit. He said, and I quote, "If I ever start believing in hell then I will become a vegan again". Pretty good quote if you ask me. I am getting far off subject though. To be honest, some of the ways that animals are stored and slaughtered sickens me (such as chickens being dipped into boiling hot water to simultaneously pluck and kill them). I am a fucking hippocrate really.

I NEVER EAT A TWIG OR A BERRY
EVERY FUCKING MEAL'S AN OBITUARY
YOU'LL EAT ANY LEAFY, GREEN, INDIGESTABLE SUBSTANCE

I'M GONNA SKIP MY DAILY BREAD
AND DINE ON YOU WHEN YOU ARE DEAD
I'LL TREAT YOU LIKE CATTLE WHOSE DIETARY HABITS YOU ADMIRE SO WELL

DARWIN'S LAWS I MUST OBEY
EVERY OTHER MEAT MAY BE MY PREY
WHO CARES IF YOU LIVE TEN YEARS LONGER THAN ME?
COLON CANCER'S A PERFECTLY RESPECTABLE WAY TO DIE

(chorus)
I'M LIVING HIGH AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN
YOU'RE GONNA DIE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FOOD CHAIN
I'M LIVING HIGH AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN
YOU'RE GONNA CHOKE ON A BUCKET FULL OF TOFU
I'M LIVING HIGH AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN
YOU'RE GONNA DIE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WHEAT FIELD
I'M LIVING HIGH AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN
YOU'RE GONNA DIE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FOOD CHAIN

//////////--High Steppin' Seafood, "Top of the Food Chain" best song ever, along with "Valujet" by AC

plants don't feel, but they are still living.

and yeah, it is pretty sickening what they do to slaughter animals and most people dont' want to or just don't think about it when they eat the animal itself.

I've been vegetarian for 12 years. Try to be vegan, lasted 3 months...
I'm very concern about ecology/reneweable energy/food for everyone/health (though I'm not obscessed), that's why I don't drive, why I'm vegetarian, why I don't use cleaning products containing chemicals, why I eat organic food as much as I can, why I try not to use big corporations/multinationals and go to small businesses instead...I think human is shit, that we don't respect shit and I cannot wait for nature to take its revenge. If I could hunt and go fishing, and prepare the meat then I might eat meat again...I most likely won't. The only leather I wear is my boots, I walk too much to use snikers, plus I don't want to have to worry about my feet being crushed at a show, and in the winter snikers suck. The fact that I'm vege and don't drive allow me to have a lot of treats (desserts, cakes, and obviously beer), if I would eat meat I would be a big fat ass and really, I don't want. I just don't trust all those greedy bastards who use pesticides/hormones...these are just not safe.

Really, we need to eat something, right? You cannot just feed on meat, but apparently we can do very good with only plants. Most food plants are annuals anyways, and need to be planted every year, herbs need to be cut back in order to produce more, same for beans...so the plant thing doesn't really make any sense. All the space that is needed to grow food for animal consumption could be use to grow food for humans.
There's people even in the US that don't have enough to eat, hungry kids all over the country...that's not covering the rest of the world. I don't think I've ever suffer because lack of food, I always had enough to eat...and really I feel lucky.

I just hope that our governments/people would be more concern for those in need.

RustedAngel said:

yea, i dont like to think about it, but dammit when i do i feel like the biggest fucked up piece of shit asshole in the world.

bingo. we have a winner.

i really didn't take the time to read all this shit so i dont know if this has been said..
but when cavemen ate meat, thats what developed their brains. without it we'd all be monkeys. i'm no expert on the subject..
i saw it on discovery channel

what else are we to eat ...

plants live. animals live.

animals kill animals for food. because every living thing needs food to survive. some animals survive off of plants. some off of meat, or both. i dont think im going to become vegan or anything, but its interesting to think that humans arent the only ones eating meat. MEAT eats meat.

the people who preach against eating meat should also preach to
lion's who kill antelope or polar bears who kill fish for eating.

i may be going off track, but thats just what i think

heartless said:

That sounds so heartless, har har har. I couldn't resist.

HAH HAH

a hearty chuckle

hah hah

heartless said:

yeah, but us humans are intelligent enough to create our own food. I'll agree that cave men had no idea what was going on and had to eat meat to survive... a human doesn't need meat to survive though. Actually we could probably survive by taking pills that have all the vitamins our body needs (and some carbs probably)...That won't happen because we like to taste things.

that's "level 5 vegan" not "5th degree vegan" jackass...get your simpsons quotes fucking straight rustedbagel...

definitely true. taste is probably the largest factor in what we want and choose to eat. unless to some extend, a human is starving. which rarely happens in america... maybe this just bears down to what country you live in. just kidding...

RustedAngel said:

definitely true. taste is probably the largest factor in what we want and choose to eat. unless to some extent, a human is starving. which rarely happens in america... maybe this just bears down to what country you live in. just kidding...

RustedAngel said:

Dude, where do you think they take those vitamins from? Dead shit? Volcanic Ash? Seriously, I really want to know.

sebekemsaf said:

I didn't even post that quote you fucking fag. So get who your talking to 'straight'.

I don't give a shit rustedfagel. Word from the wise....don't FUCK with the carnivores...now go back to eating your lettuce my little meek one...

whoah.. mickel? long time no see.
pamela petrini just called me last night

you mean Wednesday...

Beautiful Meat is Pure Energy
I Kill, I Cook, I Eat, I am FREE!

You are a slave to the whims of nature's uncaring ecosystem...
------------------------------------------------------------------
(more carnivorous song lyrics, folks! COME ON!)

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

sebekemsaf said:

oh wow, "rustedfagel", that is clever. hey i got a good one, how about "rusted poop face"?

hey aaron, yeah i know you talked to pokey...word gets around. i'll be seeing her in october i think in NH.