like some of what's what is obvious: Emperor is metal. At The Gates is Metal. Ten Yard Fight is Hardcore. Gorilla Biscuits are Hardcore.

But what about The Network? What about Darkest Hour? What are they? I would imagine breakdowns make you "metalcore" but what about God Forbid or Meshuggah?

This confuses me. What establishes one over the other?

Metal always had 'break downs' . Just alot cooler 'break downs'. "hard core" is not just 'breakdowns' but also attitude and rithym.
In my oppinion, if you're band has an obvious "hard core" influence, you're band would lean more to the "hard core" side. and just cause you have a long haired member in a "metal-core" band doesnt mean that you're band is more Metal the "hard core".

hmmm...

like when people say they HATE Metalcore, what do they mean? Metal with lots of breakdowns or hardcore with lots of metal parts?

I mean how do I go "This is metalcore"?

I don't label much so it's not an easy task for me to figure out the terminology.

Metalcore to me is MTV friendly metal. Killswitch, All That Remains, things like that.

so All That Remains is Metalcore? Weird, cause I was certain people would say they are metal. I've even known people to refer to them as straight out metal...

now I'm clueless.

Killswitch I can kinda understand.

No fucking way all that remains is "straight out metal". LISTEN to it.

i dont really care.

metalcore is a very broad label. some say that overcast is metalcore, but they aren't anything like atreyu, who others call metalcore.

when i hear the term 'metalcore' used i think of bands like killswitch and unearth

swamplorddvm - yeah but the problem is I'm not hearing what's making it "metalcore" over metal. I mean, if we just go by what's similar, than Sawtooth Grin and Psyopus are metalcore cause they have breakdowns and such...

and I mean darkest hour is metalcore then, right?

or what about Shadows Fall?

Shadows Fall, definitely metalcore.

If people are calling those bands straight up metal then metal is dead.

"hard core" didnt invent 'break downs'. Metal's always had them.

so what makes metal metal and hardcore hardcore?

there's those that say hardcore was basically punk rock. So things like Strife and Bane cease to be hardcore at all.

i think it really boils down to a band that has influence from metal and hardcore, which has been happening for years. Often bands are labeled that when they arent totally influenced by death metal or totally influenced by hardcore, power metal etc. I like some bands that fall under the metalcore term, All that Remains, Unearth, older Lamb of God, etc.

Its a dumb label. I think it started out with shit like Overcast, and stemmed from there. I guess people would say shit like Cannae, Killswitch, and the like is "metalcore". Its dumb.

It's not dumb, because it's a definate different style, so for people like me who realize how bad it is, it's good there is a label for it so I can just say I hate metalcore.

I guess. I like some of it. I really don't care.

I think labels to define genres are important, so you don't have to be like "i dig bands like Kreator, Sodom" or "i hate bands like unearth and poison the well"
Or, when a new band forms or you are trying to tell someone about a band they don't know; Abhorred is grindcore with thrash influences. It makes it easier then comparing them to a dozen or more bands.

so what about bands like DRI and suicidal tendencies? are they metal core? these bands went from hardcore punk to borderline thrash . back then, we just called it crossover.

I still call them crossover. Or punkthrash. I love the old crossover bands.

BENEATH THE WHEEELLL!!!

That was such an awesome cd. I love it!

yeah but sometimes...actually I should say often...people define themselves by genre and then push out everything else.

I mean, I'll be the first to throw myself in the line of fire and say I like the things I like and try and work all those influences into what I create as a performer, as a musician, and as an artist. I know some bands that would freak out over breakdowns because they wanted to be as metal as possible, but that line of reasoning blocks out so many great things.

I dunnow, I hate overly kung fu kicking shows and stuff, but then again sometimes I like that...just not when it's dick and stupid and all kung fu all the time. I like to be open to new stuff...

I agree 100% with Joe when he says it makes it easier to define bands by genre and move product. It's been fucking tough saying we're just "music", but then when we say we're "grind" it makes people not understand our clean, melodic stuff and when we say we're "clean, melodic stuff" people are like "Uh...no...you have tech parts and growl vocals and blast beats". Then we say we're a metal band and people are like "Oh satan and long hair and blah blah" so we say ok how bout we're a hardcore band? and then people that like metal automatically don't want to give you a chance cause they think you're kung-fu-stuff but anyone that's heard us knows we're not.

I started thinking about this topic cause a band said they were tech metal and then I heard them and they were what I perceived as metal-core.

It's all so mind boggling.

Mixing genres can be good sometimes. We mix grind and thrash. I just don't like the overall metalcore sound. I like metal, and I like oldschool hardcore (some) but when nu hardcore and metal come together, it blows.

hahahah nu hardcore? oh man I never heard that...what is that like FATA?

Basically

me and john went to sick as sin to hand out flyers, and we gave one to this kid and he asked

"what kind of music are these bands?"

so we said grind, thrash death, that kind of thing, and he looks john straight in the eye and says:

"I'm more into METAL metal. like killswitch engage and shadows fall."

Needless to say we walked away.

That's sad man

yea. but we ended up finding a bag full of cd's after we walked away, and even though most of them sucked, it helped pass time cause we threw them out the window of johns truck and watched em shatter.

killswitch is so heavy.

"I'm more into METAL metal. like killswitch engage and shadows fall."
No shitting, my jaw actually dropped.

imagine how i felt after wastng a perfectly good flyer on that fuckwad

I like you TOC...but...who really cares? Let all brutal music be brutal...

swamplorddvm said:

it's no way metal core. i never heard madball throwing out chug riffing.

metalcore is emo and hardcore somehow mixed together. At least thats what I think of it.

if it has guitars in it, it's gay.

Shadows Fall IS metal metal. MAYBE their first album is metalcore... anything after that is just metal. listen to shit before you trash it.

I've listened to there stuff. I dont see it as "pure" (as gay as it sounds)Metal.

metalcore is like 'jud jud jud weee, jud jud jud weee'.

then i dont think you fully understand what metal is. Art of Balance = thrashy
Of One Blood = melodic metal.

I hate the shit that has breakdowns composed entirely of the same exact muted note played over and over again in a different rhythm. Then the drummer will just play the same basic shit on the hi hat and snare drum, and just match the guitar rhythm with his bass drum. Every other band did this at a show we recently played. I won't mention which show it was, but it caused me to leave early and miss suffocation.

end transmission.

dont assume i havent listened to something when i trash it. i've heard every band i have ever made fun of. i have reasons for not liking bands. i dont assume things about bands without hearing them. i'm not calling shadows fall metalcore. they arent fuckin METAL metal, though.

TheGreatSpaldino said:


by saying this you are saying that shadows fall is not metal metal.

nothing is METAL metal anymore. some people say metalcore is "metal". whatever, they arent that bright. saying that Shadows Fall isnt metal is going to make me say that Shadows Fall is metal metal because they certainly arent metalcore. and besides, it has "metal" at the end, it can be considered metal metal. (i can see someone trying to be like "AH HA! 'metalcore' has the mord 'metal' in it so therefore it is metal you stupid hypocrite!11" but if you read what i just said, if it has "metal" at the end, it is metal, regardless of the prefix that precedes it.)

Well... Why should the "metal" in "metal-core" dominate (if you will)the "Core"(hard-core), or the "core" dominate the "metal"? I guess alot of it is all about what one finds most evident in the music.

hey hoser - no I'm not saying I don't like metalcore, I'm just saying some people go "man metalcore sucks" but I'm not really sure WHAT that specifically is. How do I know from such a statement what they're referring to?

to be frank, I like all music.

and yes, I DO own 2 glassjaw albums, thankyouverymuch.

and yes, I actually like them.

who cares? this is gay. listen to something if you like it. the end.

I think people are misinterpreting the post:

it's not "metalcore is dumb" or "this music sucks!"

cause that's genuinely not my point.

the point is: how do I distinguish what metalcore is?

it's like asking "How do I know a granny smith apple when I see one?"

i think my intention would be more evident if we stuck to defining what makes metal metal and what makes hardcore hardcore and how we get metalcore from mixing those, or if it is its own thing.

rather than saying "metal is awesome, fuck hardcore".
cause that's not helping me understand it any better :\

metalcore is defined usually by bands who use metal riffs and hardcore riffs in their song and are still hardcore kids. Shattered Realm, Integrity, old 25 ta Life, and 100 Demons are good examples. Metalcore IS NOT hardcore kids playing metal as many would say. There is nothing core about bands like Black Dahlia Murder, the new Unearth, or Shadows Fall. Breakdowns DO NOT mean core either since 90% of the breakdowns in today's music is derived from Fear Factory, a metal band.

hardcore is sped up more raw version of punk. In My Eyes, Ten Yard Fight, and Embrace Today. Wow i just named all boston bands...but anyway.

Metal is a bit harder to expalian because i have to explain each and every genre.

attendmyrequiem said:

well, i dont know about that entirely... Suffocation had breakdown grooves back in the day, a lot of thrash metal bands had a lot of open stringed palm muted grooves... Fear Factory was doing the Meshuggah-esque open stringed stuff in 95 with Demanufacture. they werent really doing much of it at all in Soul of a New Machine and stuff... blah, i hate music.

TheGreatSpaldino said:

I was trying to explain that breakdowns don't mean necessarily mean metalcore, but just worded it alittle sketchy. Like the breakdowns in Unearth and All that Remains are very Fear Factory-esque breakdowns and the rest of their riffing besides those breakdowns are very melodic metal. But i think you get the gist of what i'm saying.

yeah, its all good. B-)

attendmyrequiem said:

Fear Factory? We steal all of our breakdowns from Exodus and Anthrax.

Anthrax, best breakdowns ever

actually I think SOD has the best breakdowns, but they can be considered a core band.

Dissector said:


way to read my next fucking post. trying to make a witty remark when I already corrected myself makes you....IGNORANT.

"I was trying to explain that breakdowns don't mean necessarily mean metalcore, but just worded it alittle sketchy. Like the breakdowns in Unearth and All that Remains are very Fear Factory-esque breakdowns and the rest of their riffing besides those breakdowns are very melodic metal. But i think you get the gist of what i'm saying."

I wasn't making fun of you. I'm just stating the fact that I like Exodus breakdowns. Wayo to overanalyze my fucking post.

way to post on a message board! im telling!

I like what sounds good anything from james taylor to suffocation

i like james taylor breakdowns too!!!

few things:
shadows fall is a metal band.
all that remains is most definitely a metalcore band. they have it in thier ethic too.
that fear factory comment is sorta ridiculous
embrace today to alot of "hardcore" kids are very metal. most of those dudes in that band are way into metal and were before they got into hardcore (ive read this in interviews) while they def are a staple in the hardcore scene, they are very metallic.

shit like madball to me is metallic hardcore. same with hatebreed.

just like the divisions of hardcore (metallic hardcore, tough guy hardcore, posi hardcore, melodic hardcore, etc) metalcore has many categories. all that remains for example, while they take minute long chunks out of songs to add solos, they def have hardcore grooves, ethic, and vocals. then you have bands like converge, poison the well, and a life once lost. all bands that fall under the metalcore umbrella, but all who have distinct sounds.

this is all just my opinion though. feel free to comment on it.


one more thing maybe you guys can comment on. ive always been in the middle of the road for lamb of god. i mean, they are straight up metal in so many aspects, but they so have the core elements and ethics. randy is always talking about the cro mags and shit like that, bringing the "wall of death" to the masses (which i consider funny, cause all the ozzfest kids probably think they invented it) what would you guys consider them?

i havn't read one reply cause i don't want my answer to be influence by others.
i'd say metalcore is basically everytype of metal and hardcore blended together into a marketable somewhat virgin ear friendly acceptable form of emotively ailing music. metalcore typically make poetic nonsense out of such themes as love, heartbreak, betrayial, and acceptance. if you had to classify it by fashion i'd say it's all about white belts, sweater vests, and queer haircuts. oh and wicked cleche tattoos.

The only difference between metal and hardcore is booze and solos.

hey said:


What do you think metalcore is short for? metallic hardcore. Now with that said it's exactly as I explained it. Somehow people started calling hardcore kids playing metal with fear factory breakdowns (bleeding through, misery signals, endthisday, etc) metalcore, but it really isnt. Good thing my fear factory comment is ridiculous!

dude. im not trying to cut anyone down here for thier opinion. im just citing my own. why do i think its ridiculous? cause bleeding fucking through doesnt have "fear factory breakdowns" they have fucking breakdowns. Fear Factory didnt invent the wheel for breakdowns.

and metallic hardcore isnt metalcore. metalcore in my opinion are things i have stated.

all that remains, unearth, converge: metal bands influenced by hardcore.
hatebreed, madball: hardcore bands influenced by metal

YOU GUYS ARE ALL FUCKING WRONG!!!!
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
I can't beleive you know nothing about your musical history.

"metal-core" is from the late 70's/early 80's originally. bands, like the accused, who were closer to some of kevorkian's angels songs than to bleeding through. by 88, this form of metalcore was gone.

fastforward 4 years, now bands like Cave in, converge, outcast, etc... come into play. they too some rock and melodic parts and mixed them with the hardcore that had been around then and BANG! 90's metalcore is formed.

now it's 2004, 22-25 years of metalcore and it's such a broad genre... anything that houses lamb of god, ion dissonance, shadows fall, burst, between the buried and me, and all the others.. well shit.. that's a huge umbrella... though it's getting hard to genrify things...
I mean Dead to Fall is um.. swedish-black-metal-core?

ps: I consider the_network to be tech-core
pps: spaldino's shades of gray on the SF is spot on
pps: what about the last Haunted cd? that was pretty metalcore too

hey: irate too... those bands are hard to place... totally harecore with metal parts! damn all these bands for playing what they want so we can't cookie cutter them

oh and what about grindcore?
90's grindcore = napalm death
00's grindcore = the number 12 looks like you?

the reverend has spoken!

I heard Acrid started the modern metal-core movement...at least as far as hardcore kids playing metal.

if metalcore was just merely any band that blended metal and hardcore, then my favorite metalcore bands are Disengaged, Kevorkian's Angels, Abhorred, Hirudinea and Noosebomb.

the_reverend said:

I hate that misconception! psuedo technical metalcore is more like it.

Joe/NotCommon said:

to me those bands sound more like punk with some metal influence. much like DRI.

hey said:


Funny as though members of bleeding through admit to being fear factory fans and that the breakdowns are much like riffs of fear factory. go fucking listen. obviously their breakdowns were influenced by them.

Fear Factory didnt invent the wheel for breakdowns, but they were one of the first bands to pull of stop and go riffs along side bands like Meshuggah, Candiria, and even helmet. and what are breakdowns? Ahhh stuccato riffing.

secondly if you were listening to metalcore when the genre was being created (i'm not old enough to have heard about the metalcore in the 80's) but when I started listen to hardcore around 96, yes i was merely 13, metalcore was just getting big and bands taht were being calling metalcore were metallic hardcore bands.

I'm not trying to start up and arguement, but i feel you are talking from less knowledge of music.

not all breakdowns are that style of riffing. Even bands that arent "metal" or hardcore" play breakdowns. And 90s grindcore?? not napalm death. ND was grind back in the late 80's. the number 12 looks like you isnt grindcore at all. If you want to litsen to "breakdowns" go pick up molesting the decapitated. Fuck hardcore and "metalcore"

Paul FOD said:

true, paul, but the discussion is about metalcore, not everything, and as for metalcore 90% of it is fear factory breakdowns.

anyway, am i seeing you tonight with mike?

dude, you just turned an interesting discussion about music into a pissing contest of who is more old school.

with that, im done.

moron

OK lets just call it "new school (style) metal".

attendmyrequiem said:

I'm not sure that I'd call Abhorred or Hirudinea that at all. Kevorkians and Disengaged i could see (obviously), and Noosebomb in some songs maybe, but Abhorred and Hirudenia, while maintaining punk influences, could not be considered punk bands in any way...

The problem with this whole topic is that a lot of people who are from the hardcore scene or listen to a lot of the bigger (Century Media/Metal Blade) type bands is that they have a much much less honed sense of what really falls into the category of metal or not. I'm certainly not against all bands that mix genres, and I don't care if it's called Metalcore, Crossover, whatever, though modern Metalcore has certainly come to represent some more specific styles.

As for the breakdowns, it depends on what you consider "groove" or "breakdowns" to be exactly... Metal bands have always used slow and mid-paced sections to counterpoint the speedier stuff, but a lot of the grooves in modern hardcore and metalcore are based on rhythms more reminiscent of the street, and rap, which I think had a lot of impact on the hardcore scene's transition from the 80's to 90's... For example, that's why I have trouble considering a band like Skinless to be a Death Metal band, when there are beats that are certainly taken from 90's hardcore, so to me that'd fall more under the banner of Metalcore/Death Metalcore... Metal breakdowns have traditionally relied on either rhythmic, blues change ups (as started by SABBATH), or straight forward, 4/4 aggressive riffs (Thrash stuff like early-to-mid era KREATOR comes to mind) - Or some combination thereof (like many of the mid-paced MORBID ANGEL tracks)...

Of course there's a lot of crossover in every direction, since newer Hardcore bands still take influence from old Thrash, since modern Death Metal is filled with influences passed down from Hardcore through Grind, since even Black Metal bands in the early 90's began to blast a lot (not taking directly from early Grind, but still being influenced by the general push towards faster and faster drumming in all extreme music).

So it really depends on who you're talking to - someone who thinks SOILWORK and KILLSWITCH ENGAGE are the hottest things on the block might not be so accurate in their appraisals, but then again, over-defensive, jaded assholes like myself are sometimes perhaps too nitpicky about genre distinction - but I guess I feel entitled to be, since I have invested so much time and so much of myself into absorbing the history of metal. I'll listen to anything that sounds good, but mislabeling is a big pet peeve of mine, especially when it comes to the music I spend most of my time listening to...