I think that a few good things have come out of the closure of these venues
1) armageddon ann has been going to a TON more shows
2) a 4x increase in the number of awesome shows at the AS220
3) bands like TNC and throne of hate have been playing out in boston
4) more "unity" between mass/ri bands

it just seems like people don't have to worry as much any more about getting 400 kids into the met cafe to have a show. now, if 50-80 people show up to a AS220 show, it's a success.

I think this has shifted the focus of a lot of bands from just staying and playing in RI to branch into playing in worcester, boston, and NH.

yes, I miss the BoK shows.. pink rabbit.. etc.. but I see the increase of people going to Not Common shows in boston, club marque shows in worcester and the slow increase of awesome DIY shows in RI with more bands from boston playing there.
just my $.02

Yeah I see your points but what bothers me is:
1. the Goatwhore tour (and similar tours) I would have done anything to get it in town but there's not really any place for it, so unless I'm friend with the bands we most likely won't get any of these for a while.
2. I always have to ask John/Chris for rides and I think they're getting sick of it, even though I give them gas money...so if I stop coming someday you'll know why.

I'm hoping more people from RI will show up at shows in MA (the Not Common showcase, Christraper was there, which is cool) and vice versa.
The more unity to fuck the Palladium sounds good to me, unity between promoters too, well so far just Joe and I...
We were looking into opening a club in PVD with some other folks, put a deposit on a building but we pull out (too much work to do in the building).
I keep my eyes open tough.

Unity between Providence and Boston is the next vital step to really get some good shit going around here. It is baffling to me how there are so many good bands in Providence (RI in general) that nobody in the Boston scene has heard of, and vice versa. The 2 cities are very close and if bands can get their names out to both cities, then things will start falling into place where people like Anne, or Brian, or myself, can start to get some bigger acts/tours up here to New England and coordinate such efforts with each other.

the met ruled. plain and simple. i miss the met more than most dead realtives.

xmikex, with a lot of hardcore shows, I completely agree with you...
do not walk by there... it's sad.

I'm just trying to see the "bright side"

I like the AS220 and the Choppin' Block but we need a slightly bigger place for bigger tours.

Don't worry Dywer, it will happen

lupos at the strand?

too big

too corporate

Who the hell is DyWer?

It's Dwyer - you ass!

Xmikex is right though, I miss the Met too, at least they were cool, chilled out a bit, they weren't giving you shit for wearing your bullet belt in there.
Between Boston and Providence we need a 300 capacity all ages venue with good and cheap beeer, man if I didn't have the store I would totally go for it.

AUTOPSY_666 said:

you're bald

All ages? I wish... Someone's gonna have to open up a brand new club for that... We'll see how things go at the Paradise though...

As for something geographically between Boston and Providence, the only thing I know of is Jarrod's... Haha I dunno if any of you wanna take a stab at setting up an underground Extreme Metal show, but it is a big 18+ room with a good system, about 45 min from Boston and 30 from Providence... Just don't let the club add their own bands (Optic Lock anyone?) to any bills.

Joe/NotCommon said:


I have more hair than you do, and I am much better looking.

Keep being envious.

you should grow a moustache dwyer

You like when men tickle your nuts with their moustaches?

Yes, very much so.
I make girls wear fake moustaches when I fuck them in the ass.

I thought so.

Fuck Jarrods, I meant more like a club either in PVD or in Boston. Organise a shuttle service in PVD and in Boston from the club, you pay the ticket plus a bit more for gas...we used to rent buses that way to go see big shows in Paris (Metallica) that was awesome. I think I'm dreaming a bit but I don't see why this couldn't work. What I mean is that we need a godamn ROCK VENUE around (rock ,garage, punk, metal, hardcore, stoner, noise). I PVD only AS220 is cool for HC shows, most of the club bitch because they don't sell enough booze on HC nights so now they have DJ night every fucking night...but the week-ends (and NYC is already on the week-end schedule for touring bands) at the rate it's going we're going to get screwed.

I don't think it's too much too ask for, as long as people mobilize.
NYC has nothing happening.

NYC gets all the touring bands on the week-end because venues like L'amour and ABC No Rio only book on the week-end (a few other as well but I'm not sure), that's how we end up never getting a week-end show in PVD. It drives me nuts.

man, this really sucks. im a connecticutite and we've been losing our stomping grounds ourselves. i only wish i could afford to do shows more at the stafford rod and gun club to make up for this. were a couple hours from both prov and where thye paak their caaas near haavad


ps. the boston accent needs to go.

pps fuck new york. i like going to providence way better

you went to L'amour saturday night red nails and lipstick dress two sizes too tight his tongue down your throat his hand up your skirt YEAH IM A MAN BUT IT STILL HURTS

also: connecticutute...is that for real?

the_reverend said:

i may be naive in saying this, but was there any rivalry between RI and MA?
just curious.

not rivalry, as just ignorance. the 2 scenes were completely seperate of each other for no real reason

what I worry about with unity between scenes and the advent of shared, or highly frequented places for local bands, is that it will turn into something like the HOSS, which was once glorious, but eventually decayed into an elitist, drama-riddled cess pool.

Perhaps it's something plainly not worth worrying about, but when you get "scenes" you get a level of cornering, hierarchy and positioning that can be dangerous. One of the great things about the shows I've been seeing for the more "metal" than hardcore or DIY (whatever that's evolved to) these days is that it's much more low-key and beneficial to everyone...

also with scenes, as you can extrapolate from the logic behind elitism, is that if one band isn't "hip" enough, some people won't even give them a chance, and instead of it taking down a few people and then getting the other people who don't care about hipness to come see the new band or the touring band, you get people scared off by the lack of continuing to be hip.

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's something always worth considering when people make movements to create an "en masse" movement. It can be beneficial, but when it backfires, it can be loud.

Part of the great thing about the seperation in MA/RI scenes, too, is that right now they count as two different tour stops for bands...and i understand that can be cool cause you can kill two birds but I also think that it's also really great that shows like, SAY, the Examination of the... Tour had a good draw up here, then a good draw in RI, and it was like two completely different shows with completely different atmospheres.

Again, I don't have a solution but I'm just playing the advocate for some points that might go unnoticed.

I think bands can still do 2 tour dates, but as far as local bands and shows go, swapping them back and forth can be beneficial to both scenes due to possible cross over draws, which then leads to increased fan bases, or atleast a new fan base for if they play the other city next time.

As far as bands getting left behind, I can't speak for everyone but I book based on my tastes. If a good band sends me something I will book them. If the people can't along with me, or leave early or something else lame I probably won't deal with them again because I hate shit like that. I understand what you are saying about elitism and it will always exist to some level, the HOSS is probably a good example but maybe look at my chopping block shows that way. I tend to book bands that are on my mind, so the bands I talk to often are fresh in my mind more often and therefore get on more shows I do. Also bands I like alot tend to stay on my mind more often as well, when it comes time for show booking. I usually have an idea in my mind of what I want and build the rest of the show around that though.

Another hard thing will be, as far as it goes with me, is that I am looking to bring more non-new england bands to Boston (NY, PA, DC, etc) which will cut down on how often local bands play on my gigs, but for some bands they play too much now anyway so that might no be a bad thing.

bloodstorm should play here once a week for the next 50 years

Getting more touring bands, to do the kind of shows you do, Joe, is a great idea. I agree, there is a lot of local bands that get brought into the mix more than some great (really great, actually) metal and sub-genre-metal from DC and MD (have you heard Swarm of the Lotus? Holy shit) that should get a glimpse up here.

I also, admittedly, really like the idea of having an opportunity for more people to come to shows that happen...that for RI kids the luxury of seeing an MA band with their friends band will entice them to come out, and vice versa for the MA kids. That I can dig.

And of COURSE, as anyone can gauge from past posts, I'm all for a new All Ages venue, especially one more accessible to me and what I try to do.

The All Ages scene in boston dried up, and the future looks somewhat pale in that it'll probably be just more HOSS like environments opening up. I love basement shows, but to play them, sometimes you gotta get in "good" with the people who live there, which often makes the whole relationship somewhat meaningless. I'm a shit at making meaningless relationships, I can't put my heart in them so they breakdown faster than dry ice.

And yeah, you make a good point that the shows are only as diversified as the promoter. That you can't book every band every time and if you don't know about a band, or aren't currently thinking of a band (or the band snorts pills, openly, in the emergency exit lane after getting hammered since 9am, and the manager of the club gets mad and smashes a picture frame, with glass, over the guys head - true story! actually happened to a band we played with.) that you're far less inclined to work with them.

My main concern is, which was diccussed in round table on another thread, that there can only be so many shows at so many places at the same time. This causes for intereference and eventual competition. The people that have the most fanfare, connections (as far as access to a crowd or performers), and experience are the most favored to get the draw for the evening.

But, unbiasedly and looking from a perch, this also poses a good point that those who have those credentials will be the big fish in the little pond -- that it's going to be that much harder for johnny no-names new band to get a few people to see them, good or bad. That also means if there's one club that's all ages, cheap, and has promoters that know their jive, that that club will basically be the club with the 'power' so to speak. That will be the place that the other shows will feel somewhat subserviant too.

Now this isn't to say that's what a club of that depiction is trying to do, but it is to say that this is the most plausible outcome. I think that if more kids are dedicated to trying to do their own thing, and be fair to the new club, that there can be a mutually beneficial outcome (more draw to certain shows, more out of state bands applaud the 'scene' and want to come play the area, more networking can be done) which can do wonders for even the little guy booking a VFW show with 15 bands. But that can also mean the little guy who books the VFW show is often going to lose to the new place like small businesses lose to Wal-Mart because, well, they just can't keep up with the prices or availability, ya know?

thoughts?

That is exactly what has happened with the Palladium, Boston gave up on metal either through lack of interest from booking agents, or clubs closing their doors. The palladium cornered the market and now all the tours go there, of any real magnitude.
However, this has left Boston ripe for the picking, nobody was doing anything which is why a few small local scenes were able to form so quickly. It can only get bigger, I've landed some smaller tours, Misery Index, Dysrythmia, Bongzilla, and if it keeps picking up then I can probably start to get some bigger ones and eventual start competing with the Palladium upstairs maybe. They are really out of touch with what's happening, because they don't have to deal with the lower levels of the 'scene'. If the club Anne dreams of actually happens, whoever runs it probably won't face the same fate as the Palladium, because if it only holds about 300 you aren't going to get Nile or In Flames to play there, but can land some awesome mid-sized bands (Goatwhore, Exhumed). A club like that would have to still be involved in the local scene, because there aren't 7 tours a week that are worth booking, especially if whoever is booking there is interested in quality bands based on their own tastes. If it was all ages, there are definately local bands who could stand to gain pretty quickly. Kevorkian's Angels, for example, plays mostly 21+ shows but people under 21 have definately heard of them and would see them if they had a chance to do so 9in my opinion), plus the managment/booking agent, if smart, would work so that a base can be built upon. If band A plays and doesn't draw alot the first time, but is really good and working hard, then he/she should book them again and again over time because fans will follow.

the middle east? tt's? man gay?
maybe cambridge is the massiah.

TT the bears refuses to do anything metal.

The Middle East would do metal tours, as long as it falls on a weekday or was a really big band where they knew they could make a ton of money.

agreed, and I think as far as booking personelle with open minds I think you and Anne are really good about that. Both of you dudesters have been pretty great about hearing my band and my friends bands and being reasonable about giving everyone a chance to prove they are going to work hard.

As for you specifically, Joe, if I can be ballsy enough to give my report card, I think that the way you go about booking shows is actually MORE honest than what I see for a lot of other clubs/venues/circumstances.

I mean this in the following sense:

you don't seem to ascribe to any club in particular, but always make it clear you are working by yourself and for yourself but in the capacity of the club. The Middle East booking agent, or other booking agents in the area that work for clubs, make decisions in the name of the club BUT it's obviously based on what they want for the club and think is best in their opinion. They are making self-based decisions but using the club as a mask. Hence the differences in type and quality of act when booking agents shift.

You make it clear that NC shows aren't the saving grace for humanity but just what you like and your chance to give a band a shot to do whatever YOU want them to do. This lets bands know that if they don't strike out with you, it doesn't mean no one will ever work with them, it just means that you aren't into it -- there are other places to go, and you're vocal about that.

you're good about keeping abreast of the scenes and stuff going on outside of what you do.

Now I state this, as my opinion from observation, because I think that there's something to be learned from that by other people interested in booking. It's a shitfest when people pretend like they are going to repair the world's problems with music when they book shows and then everyone starts to believe them. That's too big of a goal, it's too one sided, and honestly, that's a big fib to the public if you (you meaning the person who would do that) pretend like you are the end-all-say-all of music in your area.

Some people lay responsibility in to people like Joe and assume that because he books so many shows, he HAS to book everyone, but that's my point: he's clear about who he works with and why, and is good about offering advice as to how other people can start.

This is also vital because it's a HUGE FUCKING PET PEAVE of mine when promoters try and dominate a scene and convinced people that they will fail if they try something new...that they're going to manipulate people into believing that it's their way or the highway. I've seen scenes like that and it fucking pisses me off --- mostly because it's just plain untrue, anyone can start a music scene or booking shows if they want.

And Joe, I think you recognize that this is, in the end, more what's important for the overall scene, the bands, and the labels, than what is important for you. I see a lot of shows where the promoter ties things up for his own sake, but I think that strangles a scene and leads to that persons fall when shit is going on in his area, or when he or she is too busy to do stuff and so everyone stands, watching them.

That said, this isn't a Joe only thing. I'm just using him as an example. I think as long as people are aware of the conciousness and the possibility that their actions are part of a greater interworking of things, this will all work better. Strategy can help us build a New England scene that doesn't choke out in another 5 years, or that people don't resent as much or that has a lot more cohesiveness.

and THANK GOD there's people around here that see my spit for the Palladium. They're good for huge bands we can't possibly house around here, but they gobble up some great shows we could, and then overcharge and don't spread around the wealth (not even in respect to money) enough.

they do miss out on the underbelly.

I agree with you completely, I think that the Palladium could benefit (and not just monetarily) if they would book more local bands and do local shows upstairs. I really think alot of those tours that go to the Palladium would do better at the Avalon, draw wise, because everyone hates the attitude of the Palladium staff, plus alot more younger kids could just take the MBTA in to the concert.
However, Avalon is a different type of club and managed by people who really don't need to care about anything, because all the colleges are nearby and just have to cater to dance trends.

We only need one cool metal club with a metalhead owner (lik Schmier from Destruction), all ages, good beer, good sound, good music.
METAL666

I ain't reading all of that.

metal666!

now, I wish I had more awareness of Anne and how she gets things done.

I always see these great shows anne puts together, but can't recall if I've been to any of them. I'm almost certain that anne (you) put together that show with From Ashes Rise last year (or was it earlier this year?) and DSB and all that jazz...correct? I heard good reviews of that show. My experience with Joe's work comes from the fact that I can just go outside the CB or O'Briens and see his turnout any time I like, plus I've talked to a good mix of the bands he's been working with while these shows go on, so that's where I get my info.

Maybe, then, that would also be something to gain from it is that, from what I understand, Anne is like the equivelnt of JNC in RI.

What other shows did you do? I mean, without going into a resume...if you did that Halloween show last year with XfilesX and stuff, I had a blast.

have you noticed the high volume of messageboards where people talk about bands, but so few discussions about promoters and things that concern them? or did I just miss the ones that have these conversations on them?

Anne has more touring acts and builds shows around those, I always started with local acts. We have alot in common though, I'd say, in regards to booking. She has been doing it longer then me I think, I only met her this year. It's tougher for me to get some of the bands that she can get, because I don't have access to the same sorts of venues like she does.

We didn't book the Halloween show it was Mitch from Trash Art! We tried bigger metal tour but lost our ass on each of them (Impaled/Decapitated/Incantation tour, Exhumed/Malignancy, Enslaved, Pungent Stench) I won't book any of these until I get work or get hired by a venue. We're not doing that for money we want to treat the bands right, and we don't want to lose any money. This is not possible until we're able to work with a venue.
Otherwise we do mostly punk hardcore crust grind shows, touring bands only, and we try to book at least 1 local on each show and not the same all the time (Nunslaughter, Tragedy, Rotten Sound, Phobia, Sublime Cadaveric Decomposition, Forca Macabra, Selfish...). A lot of Finnish bands lately...
We get a lot of bands from Europe, I think it's because we're good with hospitality (food, shower, laundry, place to crash, breakfast). I'd rather do few shows and do them well, even if I fuck up a lot here and there...
In the fall, we'll try to book local metal shows... once a month no more than that.

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:

dude i think i speak for alot of people when i say that i dont know or care about that stuff. id much rather talk about bands. not that i dont apreciate what goes into booking a show and a GOOD show at that. its just like. i think promoters and people who are into that kinda thing and know more about it are more apt to talk about it. i was in a band and i just liked playing. that shit stresses me out. i like talking about bands which i guess makes me ignorant but id rather be ignorant and say "___ is fucking awesome" then talk about something i dont know shit about.

by the way bloodstorm is fucking awesome everyone should go see them.

armageddonday said:

Thats an awsome idea! Lets convince Schmier to move to Providence so he can help us out! Ill call him on my cell and let you know what he thinks.

Fuck you Jay

love you too Anne

vivi - I think that perspective is a little short-sighted, though, because, as a person in a band myself, I know that our options are, very concisely:

1) Ask a promoter or work with a promoter for a show
2) Book the show yourself.

If you do the second thing, you're going to be interested in what we're discussing pretty quickly. If not, you'll probably get confused when you, too, find that 3 people showed up at a show you shelled out $400 to put together.

If it's the first item, you're also going to be confused when you're trying ravenously to get on a show and the promoter keeps saying 'no' and you're left at home with a dusty guitar.


You wouldn't start working for a company without having some idea what you're getting into, and in the same respect, this exact thing is relevant to music -- when you start working with promoters, you get a feel for what's going to happen, what to expect, and what the show is going to do for you in the end.

That to me is just being a smart musician, not someone who just enjoys talking about show promotion. When no one is interested in music, or has nowhere to play, people like you and me that make the tunes are unemployed. Or can't rock out. Take your pick.

understadable. i suppose if i was in a band where no one knew what they were doing than i would take more of an interest. but ive always been in bands where its been someone elses deal. but yeah i mean. your totally right. but like i said...i just like playing. i wish it were that easy

very much agreed!

how much does the living room hold? ive seen easly 800+ people in there (spet 11th prov declares war show) they got the old lupos sound system, new lights, THE BATHROOMS CLEAN, its all ages, its usaly only 5-10 bucks depnding on the show, its in prov but itd love to see more mass people there instead of the same people. theres shows there all week basicly mon-sun. could this be the answer?